Episode 6, Game Changers and Transition makers: Pursuing sustainability in the construction sector

Elena Lambros:

Hello, and welcome to ESG Matters @ Ashurst. I'm Elena Lambros, the Ashurst Risk Advisory ESG and Sustainability partner. Welcome to the latest episode of Game Changers and Transition Makers.In this series, I'll be speaking to entrepreneurs around the globe who are at the forefront of driving the sustainability agenda, through innovative business ideas and company startups.

In this episode, I'll be joined by Cameron McKenzie, founder and CEO of ASPIRE, a digital circular economy marketplace platform. Over the last four years, Cameron's efforts have significantly grown ASPIRE from CSIRO and Data 61, expanding it from fewer than 100 businesses to a robust network of over three and a half thousand businesses operating across multiple countries. The platform now boasts over two million tonnes of resources with a primary focus on building strong support networks and fostering collaboration among businesses.

Thanks for joining us today, Cameron. Lovely to have you on the podcast.

Cameron McKenzie:

No problems. Very happy to be here and happy to be part of it.

Elena Lambros:

Well, I'd like to start just probably asking you a little bit about yourself and your business. Given, particularly knowing that you're in the circular economy ecosystem world, maybe explain to people how did you get into this and what exactly does that mean?

Cameron McKenzie:

Good question. So winding back a little while, I worked 15 years in the construction industry. And as an apprentice you learn all the things you shouldn't do, like put all the hazardous stuff or the bad stuff at the bottom of the skip and look at ways to not really be that sustainable. Which is quick and inefficient. And always sort of had a bit of a beam upon it regarding that.

But then basically went through the industry, always had that feeling of being a bit more sustainable and have a bit more thoughts around how people can be more circular, more sustainable. Back then, there really wasn't a term or phrase, circular economy. But probably about five, six years ago, an opportunity come across my desk with CSIRO and Data 61, they created an algorithm that matches businesses surplus materials or waste streams. And it sounded like a really good idea because I was pretty much doing that already manually. So yeah, I come on board and I took that on and been working in that area ever since. Started very small and now we've got thousands of businesses doing ... we had one business, I read a report yesterday, they did $1.2 million worth of savings last year just by using the platform. So, yeah.

Elena Lambros:

That's kind of amazing. So when I think about the circular economy, I think about the choices I might make as a consumer around what happens to things when I no longer need them, and if they can be reused in any other way. Would it be helpful to maybe just run through some sort of example around when you say trading algorithms and people making savings, what that might look like?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah, yeah, no problem. Well, when it comes to the fundamentals of the circular economy is actually not sending the items to landfill at end of life or breaking them down so they can be reused or repurposed or pull the components apart. But also to rebuilding those products in such a way that it can be reused or repurposed, doesn't go into landfills. That's the main thing, there's several sort of terminologies around that about reuse/repurpose. There's a myth in everyone's mind that recycling's a part of the circular economy and it's like the last thing you need to do. But anyway, it's a bit of a myth. The penny will drop hopefully soon.

Basically, how sort of ASPIRE works and the matching algorithm in it, is there's basically, if you think of the desk that you're sitting at, for an instance. Probably 80% timber, 15% maybe steel or something for the legs, maybe 1% plastic and maybe 3% paint. And how the platform works is when someone uploads that desk, the customer or the user can actually go down to that granular level or they can put it on as the desk, it's up to them. And basically when they list it, it goes through the network and anyone that in the industry is looking for timber or the steel legs or elements of plastics, they'll get a match. And they'll say, Hey, is this something I'm interested in? Being the 80% of timber, the timber will probably be the best match for it. But also with that, the algorithm in the platform we geared a little while ago to be reuserepurpose. So someone will actually use it as a desk rather than recycle it. So yeah, that's how we've got the algorithm sort of geared for that.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating. And I imagine there is quite a lot of work that goes into that algorithm trying to figure out what the repurpose be for or what might happen next. So how did this kind of idea come about that this would be something that people would actually need or would like to use?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah, well, going right back. So ASPIRE has been around for about 10 years now. Back in its infancy, four local governments got together in Victoria, and you'd think it'd be the waste or sustainability areas, but it was actually economic development.

Elena Lambros:

Oh, really?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah. So economic development, for those who don't really know, the terms differ within the local governments. But it's about areas of the local government that actually concentrate and try to help businesses be better. Or try to help them with securing land or permits or things like that, that really help them. And one of the things they were hearing about all the time is our businesses were complaining about the cost of doing business is going up, it's skyrocketed, obviously, as you know. But also too, the waste disposal costs or trying to procure sustainable materials.

So these local governments got together, they got a grant from the State Government of Victoria, and they engaged CSIRO and Data 61 to build up pilot program where businesses can upload anything from spoil furniture, C&D products, anything. And basically it almost ... there was one that creates a directory, but two, there's an algorithm that'll actually notify not in a non-passive way. So it actually pings them and go, hey, this fits right into your demographic, what your industry is, have a look and see if it fits. And that puts the two people together to negotiate or discuss if it's needed.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah, how fascinating. And I love that this solution has been around for a lot longer than people have actually been talking about circular economy. So it's now suddenly starting to get in the press quite a lot, but it's obviously been under the ... people have been thinking about it for a while.

So what does success look like for you in terms of how you want to grow it? I can see that I think that you've now got over close to 3,000 businesses operating on the platform. Obviously you've grown it significantly. What does success look like?

Cameron McKenzie:

I think basically success in my eyes, truly would be every business in Australia using it as a part of their day-to-day business. As some businesses use, say like eBay or Marketplace to search certain things. We want it to be a part of the norm of every business, every government, sort of every organisation. We've got, I think just something about three and a half, we've got to update those stats. Thanks for telling me ... reminding me. But we've got about three and a half thousand businesses, but I love to have ... I think there's 2.8 million SMEs in Australia at the moment. And we would love to have 2.8 million of them using it. We would like everyone using it. For one, to measure the impact. But for two, to help them make sustainable choices moving forward. I think that's a main goal. And obviously international expansion too would be handy.

Elena Lambros:

Cameron, I guess in terms of if you want to grow or expand the business, what sort of models or what would you need to make sure that you can achieve your aim of being international?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah, good question. So end of the day, we're a little business in a big ecosystem. So partners, anyone to help us expand larger clients, corporate clients would be really good. We're working on a few at the moment, some really big projects coming up in Queensland. But again, it's sort of that project growth and we want to be able to switch the platform to help these bigger customers and these bigger projects. That's probably some of the main things we're looking at to expand.

I'm actually off to Doha in two weeks. It's just looking at different markets and you look at different countries, like even the Netherlands. Australia's probably 60 years behind some of the cool stuff they're doing. And then you look at some places in the Middle East and they're 60 years behind what we're doing. So you look at different opportunities, but again, it's all about trying to get the message out, indirect and direct network effects when it comes to onboarding these bigger customers. And that marketing opportunity too is really good. So yeah, that's what we're looking for and that looks for success for us in the next short term anyway.

Elena Lambros:

Well good luck with that. I think some of those international opportunities will definitely be worth it. How are you going to target this growth? How are you out there getting the message around how it works? And how it can really align with people? A lot of people are making commitments now around their sustainability. It's really important. It's like an employee who you work for. How are you getting the message out there?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah, well think of it, a lot of it at the moment, there's the financial disclosure statements are coming in a few months that all big businesses have to be reporting on there. And one of the things, obviously it's going to be a gradual thing. But one of the things that ASPIRE does is it fixes it. It fixes it, it's a solution for that problem that's coming up. So any business that can use the ASPIRE, they can use the information to help them with those financial disclosure statements.

Elena Lambros:

And so they can be really comfortable that when they're disclosing around what they do with this, that it's obviously accurate, it's defensible, it ties in with their strategy, it has the right metrics that they might need for that?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah, absolutely. So some of the major metrics that we measure is landfill diverted, the revenu - How much earning or saving. But also too, what makes us stand out from the rest is we're actually ISO verified to be reported in your carbon emissions avoidance.

Elena Lambros:

Oh, okay, great.

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah. So what we do is we can report on a monthly annually process that basically can create these impact certificates. It says how much carbon ... it's all ISO verified, it's all fine. They're not tradable, which makes it, again, different. So you can't buy them. It's actually from your activity, which again is another level of ... stops people from trying to get around it or trying to rewash the solution. For them to get the reports, they have to be doing those actions. And they have to be related to almost a financial transaction, as well as tick some balances that we've got in the platform with when our items actually go for free. So there's a track and trace element we've got in it, QR codes, so there's a certain criteria it's got to go through to certify.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah, that's incredibly important. Because I know being able to track some of this and measure it and be really comfortable that you are saying what you are actually doing, is really quite a key consideration around that.

Quick question, do you find that people, if they're reusing things more than once, so if they found something on the platform that then they kind of listed again. Do you kind of understand how circular everything is?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah. Yeah, so we do. So we can track it from, obviously when someone purchases it, goes to, say, your desk and then you don't want it anymore, then it goes to my desk. We can actually track exactly where it goes. You can go infinity times forward, infinity times ... not infinity times backwards from when you purchase it, it goes that way. So we can actually map where it goes. And there's also carbon emissions avoided or saved by repurposing a desk. And there's elements with the platform where if it goes from building to building, rather than from your office to the office next door. So it's a bit different, you can't game it like that. It's actually got to be ... it's from say the building you're in to the building across the road. So it's a different business. So it's sort of got to be done sort of that way to an element.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah. Excellent. I love that accuracy. It's very important. In terms of when I think about re-imagining what current systems is, or as we like to say on this podcast, "changing the game", what do you think is key to being able to achieve that?

Cameron McKenzie:

Policy. Federal policy, I think that would be a game changer. There is a lot of stuff happening at the moment. There's a lot of positive stuff happening at the federal government level at the moment.

Elena Lambros:

It is good to see there's some focus on policy and thinking through around what might be put in place, right?

Cameron McKenzie:

Yeah. And the levers, right? What's going to cause it. There's the Finance Ministers been speaking to the Climate Minister regarding it, and it's going right down to Defence. Defence is getting interested in it. So there's a lot around it and there's a really good circular economy working group at that federal level that's doing some really, really good stuff.

But again, that's going to take a couple of years for it to implement because it's a minefield. But one of the things that I sort of reiterate with them is it's really, really good that you're doing this, it's really positive. But it's no good putting a policy on top of a policy. It just confuses everyone. So if you're going to put this in, you've got to make some room at the bottom to allow the business or commercial sector to balance it out and work their way through it. And again, that comes with partnerships. So who's going to be partnering? It sort of comes with people not being so defensive about their secrets, keeping their cards to the chest. They've got to just sort of share a problem rather than think it's their own problem. Because everyone else has got that problem, as well.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah, that's very true. So one of the questions I always ask everybody on the podcast is, what is your own personal commitment to net-zero in the next 12 months?

Cameron McKenzie:

Someone said that to me the other day, what's your impact of your day-to-day life and your business? What's that making on net-zero targets? And I said, well, my business last financial year did, I think it was close to 400,000 tonnes of carbon avoidance. So I think I'm doing okay. There's some stuff I could do at home probably a little bit better. But again, I know where the focus is and where I can make the biggest impact. And spending all this time at home making little things, it's like, it's great, I'm ticking that off. But concentrating that hours on making a bigger impact for businesses is more important, I think, to me at the moment.

Elena Lambros:

Yeah, that really comes clear when you look at the work that you've been doing and the way that it's grown. It's really impressive to see, actually. Finally, if you could provide listeners with one action to take away, what would that be?

Cameron McKenzie:

Collaboration, I think. Collaboration. Again, as I just sort of said earlier, is if you're an organisation, no matter how big you are or whatever, if you've got the same problems as someone else, they're exactly the same. A problem shared is a problem halved. And that's one of the biggest things. And look, I'll give you another prime example is we had an organisation that was losing, I think, thousands of dollars a day in liquidating damages because they couldn't get goods imported. They couldn't get to site, they're having meltdowns. And basically on the platform, they matched with the business through collaboration that had that exact same product and they're throwing it out.

Elena Lambros:

Oh, wow.

Cameron McKenzie:

It was like timber, right? They had to get shredded and make it into different things. And they had, I think it was 12 meter skip every two weeks they were getting rid of.

Elena Lambros:

Wow.

Cameron McKenzie:

So basically we put together and all they had to do was forklift it down the road. And that's problem solved.

Elena Lambros:

Simple solution.

Cameron McKenzie:

But if these two businesses didn't talk about their problems and they matched through the platform, they never would've had that, right? And the guy with the timber, I think he was spending about $2,000 to $3,000 a week. And this guy was about $2,000 to $3,000 a day, he was getting penalized. So this connection was perfect for them. So again, collaboration is the key. Think a little bit outside the square.

And another takeaway, there will be three takeaways. But one little win that you get just inspires innovation on better ways you can do things. And that's one thing that I've noticed is you get one little win that you are saving money, but you also help another business. You both excited, it just ticks off any innovation, switching your brain and then you think about what more can I do? Or you look around your business and go, what other positive outcomes we can make from it?

Elena Lambros:

Well, I think three takeaways is pretty good for our listeners. So thank you so much, Cameron, for being on here. We really appreciate you being here.

Cameron McKenzie:

No problems. Yeah, again, thank you very much for the opportunity. And yeah, I hope yourself and the listeners got something out of it.

Elena Lambros:

I think we did. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. I hope you found this episode both worthwhile and insightful. To learn more about our podcasts, visit Ashurst.com/podcasts.

This Game Changer and Transition Makers mini-series follows on from our 30 for Net-Zero 30 series. And I would encourage you to click on the link in the shownotes to find out more.

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