Let’s Yarn: Building bridges between Japan and First Nations peoples in Australia

Trent Wallace

We acknowledge First Nations peoples as the traditional custodians of the land on which we work in Australia. We pay our respects to elders, past, present and emerging, and to the youth who are working towards a brighter tomorrow.

My name is Trent Wallace, and I'm a Wongaibon person who was raised on Darkinjung Country, and I'm the Head of First Nations Strategy at Ashurst.

In this episode of Let's Yarn, I'm joined by corporate partner, Natsuko Ogawa, who leads Ashurst’s Japan practice in Australia, and our Head of Region, Australia, Lea Constantine. Together, we'll be reflecting on our recent client visits in Japan, including the World Expo 2025 in Osaka and meetings in Tokyo.

As many of you know, Ashurst has a strong Japanese client base, with clients deeply engaged in Australia's mining, resources, real estate and energy sectors. Our conversations with clients centered on the themes of First Nations advancement and engagement as an integral part of doing business in Australia, it was inspiring to see the genuine interest from our Japanese clients in building meaningful relationships with First Nations peoples and understanding the importance of cultural sensitivity in the Australian projects landscape.

Trent Wallace

Hello and welcome. Lea, how are you today?

Lea Constantine

Hi there, Trent, it's great to be here. Thank you so much.

Trent Wallace

Hi, Nat, welcome. How are you?

Natsuko Ogawa

I'm really great. Thanks, Trent, great to be with you.

Trent Wallace

Thank you both so much for joining me. I am so excited to have this bit of a debrief with you both. But before we do that, can you give me a bit of an introduction to yourselves? Lea, I will start with you…

Lea Constantine

So a brief introduction: My name is Lea Constantine. I'm a partner here at Ashurst. I've been at the firm for 32 years. I'm an employment lawyer, and in recent years, I've also joined our global executive team, which is what really brought the three of us together, and this trip to Japan, which I'm so keen to speak about.

Trent Wallace

Thanks. Lea. Nat, I'll hand over to you.

Natsuko Ogawa

Thanks so much, Trent. So my name's Natsuko Ogawa. I am a partner in the Corporate Transactions team at Ashurst. I specialise in mergers and acquisitions and joint ventures. And I primarily work with Japanese companies that are investing in Australia.

Trent Wallace

Now Nat, I'm really curious – you've been able to carve out such a unique space for your practice. When did that all start for you?

Natsuko Ogawa

Certainly over 30 years, I have seen quite a lot of changes, but I started out really just at the young lawyer who was wanting to make a contribution to helping Japanese people with their businesses in Australia.

And back then, it was mostly around mining, obviously, having been from Western Australia, very much was about iron ore and LNG with those kind of industries growing at that time.

And so the first thing I would say, in terms of my practice and my observation is that the business between Australia and Japan has really changed over that time to become much more diversified. And so you now see so many industries – in fact, most industries in Australia – Japanese companies, participating actively and really making an enormous contribution to that.

And I suppose that one observation I would make is that there's been a deepening of understanding between the countries as to how each other works and how to take that to a more collaborative sort of space, and that creates more opportunities for those of us who are advising and helping our clients on both sides – on the Australian side and the Japanese side and the international side – to bring parties together and to help them to collaborate.

And the third thing I would say that's changed (which is a bit of an extension of that point) is around governance. So I now see a lot of senior leaders, particularly boards of Australian companies that have Japanese parent companies or Japanese shareholders, becoming much more curious about the way that Japanese companies govern themselves and how they make decisions and how the Australian board can also work with that Japanese board in a more constructive way – rather than being as concerned about the differences between the two countries that obviously still exist – but rather having that curiosity and interest in understanding each other more deeply. And then how can that help to, I guess, drive both the Australian and the Japanese sides of the business together. So that's been really refreshing and really good to be part of.

Trent Wallace

Oh, thank you so much for that, Nat. It's really interesting to see that kind of relationship develop. And now Lea for you as Head of Region. What are some of the key takeaways you observed from our time in Japan, and obviously on reflection of what Nat just shared with us?

Lea Constantine

So many reflections and takeaways from that trip together that we had.

It was all very much client-focused, and we spent so much time with our clients whilst we were over there, and lots of different clients in lots of different settings.

As Head of Region, one thing that I absolutely have come away – from Japan and away from those client engagements – thinking about is the world of opportunity that exists there.

I mean, obviously Nat has established herself as a key Australian/Japanese person in the business community. That was something that was so obviously clear to me when we went just the way in which Nat is regarded. You know, people listen to Nat when she speaks. There's lots of things that people/our clients over there, were looking to Nat towards.

But the opportunities are broad, and they're broad for the whole of the Australian business of Ashurst and beyond Australia. Mind you, you know globally, what was so obvious to me was the breadth of the work that our Japanese clients are doing in Australia, absolutely, but also beyond Australia, and what their ambitions and aspirations are in other places in the world in which we exist and where we can help them.

I also observe from them an absolute and utter openness to new ideas, to a business conversation that was actually more complex than what you know, we're typically talking to clients about. It wasn't just like, you know, “What does the Corporations Act say?” or “What are these new merger control laws?” It wasn't about that.

It was actually about a whole lot of other things, including First Nations issues, which we we’ll come to and what is so interesting about that is that the quality of the conversations that we had with those clients were just amazing. They were very, very interested in the things that we had to say. They were interested in the observations we had to make.

But not just because they are fascinating and interesting. They were looking at it from a business perspective, which is quite unusual when you're sort of looking at, you know, for example, for us, it was almost cultural issues in a business setting. And what does that mean? What does the marriage of those things look like?

And I know the three of us were sort of wondering, “Oh, I don't know how this is going to be received when we go over there”. But my one of my main takeaways was: [First Nations discussion was] incredibly well received. [Clients were] very, very interested in the conversation, asking business related questions about that.

And what is obvious for us is that we have a role to play in this. Ashurst could connect our Japanese clients with an issue that's going on in Australia, around First Nations and other things.

That was one of our central themes, and bringing that all together was an incredibly valuable experience for our Japanese clients. And I know they're all so gracious, and they sent lovely follow up notes. But those notes were not just thanks. It was “Great to see you and meet you”. It was “Thanks. I really enjoyed that. And I'm inquisitive and I'm curious, and I want to learn more.”

So I walked away from our experience in Japan thinking what a rich experience that was, and what a great conversation it was, and that we were just beginning. I sort of think there's a lot more to go in all of this.

Trent Wallace

Oh, thank you so much, Lea. You know, I love the word that's coming up in this yarn, it's “curiosity”. And what I really observed was the kind curiosity of the nature of the Japanese people that we'd been yarning with. We had the pleasure of spending time in their businesses, them coming to our special event that we hosted, which we do need to get to and cover off on, because that was incredible.

But Nat, when did you get the idea of putting First Nations peoples and your Japanese clients together? How did that come about for you? I know our relationship started in 2023 but tell me, when did it start coming up for you, in your mind?

Natsuko Ogawa

I had been focused very much on gender diversity and cultural diversity for quite a number of years, which led me to become very involved in promotion of gender diversity in the Japanese relationship, where, obviously that's been a huge point of focus for Japan as well.

And in 2023 I was involved in a committee that was putting together a panel for the Australia Japan Business Conference in Melbourne, where the moderator of the panel was the extraordinary First Nations woman Nicole Forrester. And Nicole was asking the committee for people that we might propose to be on the panel.

And the panel was going to be about “beyond gender” and looking at a broader cross section of diversity. And of course, Trent you immediately came to mind. We hadn't actually met at that time, but I'd heard all about you, and I thought “We've got this really amazing young leader in our organization”, and I thought you'd be perfect for that panel.

So fortunately, Nicole agreed, and you were able to be on that panel at a time that was really difficult as well for you, Trent. It was very challenging, a time with The Voice referendum. It was, for that reason as well, a good opportunity, I think, to have a First Nations person on a panel. I think, almost for the first time we'd ever had that at that conference.

So that sort of started it for me, and we didn't sort of connect again for a little while, Trent. Obviously, a lot of things happened after that too.

But when I did catch up with you earlier this year in Brisbane for breakfast, that was just an amazing time. You might have said something Trent, to the effect of, “How are you feeling now that you've been, been out talking to lots of people. What's your sort of feeling around that? What are your perceptions around that?”

And was such a interesting way to start a conversation. But, you know, I think we had a really great, great chat, great yarn, and I think we started to realise that we have a lot more in common with each other than we might have realised before, and that we could really help each other.

But when I sort of go back to that commonality, and I think you just flagged it (and you might want to say a few things about this as well your reflection from the trip) but when I first approached you back in 2023 I remember you said, “I've never been to Japan, but I love Japan, and I love Japanese people, and I love the culture, and I've always been fascinated by it”.

And you know, that was a real sort of revelation to me, that a First Nations person in Australia might be able to relate very strongly to Japanese culture, and I think that was a really good basis for our relationship, I think.

And you know, as we've been having this journey together, we are starting to realise that there is this affinity, there is this easy kind of link there between First Nations and Japanese cultures that surely is going to result in some great relationships being formed and taking us into a new direction, Trent, that we haven't been in before.

In the relationship when I've spoken to Japanese clients In the past 25 years or longer of my career, you know, it's been a very limited conversation around First Nations. And so it's, you know, land access. It's the Native title, you know, that's very much on people's minds.

It's also where you've got progressive clients who are really trying to engage. They're really struggling, because they find it difficult to find First Nations people that they can connect with or employ.

So opening up those opportunities, those channels, particularly through your leadership, Trent, was something that I was very attracted to.

And you know, this year we had this amazing opportunity, because the World Expo 2025 in Osaka features a magnificent Australia pavilion. And the Australia pavilion theme is all around what we can learn from First Nations.

So Australia is projecting to Japan for these six months of the expo itself, from a First Nations perspective, and I don't think that that's happened in history before.

And when we were thinking about, “Well, how could Ashurst participate or contribute to the expo?” I thought, well, instantly, we need to take you Trent to the Expo! And we need to introduce you to Japan, to Japanese people.

And the ideal timing for that was First Nations Week, which was at the start of August. And through assistance of our friends at the Australia pavilion led by Nancy Gordon, we were able to get ourselves a slot in the program to bring our clients to the expo, to introduce you to them, and to have a yarn, which Lea mentioned, was one of the highlights of our time there.

Trent Wallace

Thank you so much for covering off on that Nat, and what a joy it was to recognise our similarities and find that synergy. I think we're approaching a really pivotal time in Australia with, you know, relationships with First Nations peoples.

And so Lea, I'd really like to understand, you know, businesses looking to invest in Australia have been focusing on First Nations work specifically via “social license to operate”. When and why do you think that shift came about?

Lea Constantine

Really good question. And I've been reflecting on sort of the timeline, you know, as: when did things sort of happen, and why did they happen?

I mean, Natsuko has mentioned The Voice referendum. I mean, that was just something that happened at a point in time, and we're not going to traverse all the “ins and outs” of the referendum here. But it was something that actually bought these issues more to the forefront.

And I think in addition to that, you've had a collision of all kinds of other things. You know, the rise of ESG, the rise of reputation as being an issue. “Social license” is a just a neat way of saying, “Are we a good organisation? Are we going to be good for the people, the climate, the environment, all stakeholders? First Nations people, in Australia, are stakeholders.

And it's all about how and when and why they have been recognised and how they're being brought in to the debate. You know, given a seat at the table. Are we there yet? No. But are we making advances? I'm confident that we are – but we've still got a long way to go.

What I was fascinated about when we went to Japan and talking to clients, as Nat has mentioned, they want to know what the role of First Nations people are, where do they fit into their business objectives and their business goals, and what will that be? Is it an impediment? Is it a positive? Is it a negative? How does it all work?

And the fact that they are willing to have a conversation with us about that, and you know, they are some very punchy questions. They didn't hold back, which I was delighted about. I sort of thought, “Good. Let's just put all these hard things on the table here, and let's talk about them.”

All of that gets me to the point of thinking social license is important. Your “ticket to play” in Australia is an important ticket to have.

There is a recognition amongst our Japanese clients that First Nations issues are one of those issues that they need to grapple with. And the beauty of us being able to go there and have this fantastic conversation at the World Expo in Osaka with these Japanese clients (and some other important Australians were there as well) was so brilliant. Because we were able just to talk about these issues openly, transparently.

And, you know, there was a lot of passion being expressed by everybody around the table, with their different perspectives.

One thing just to mention – the last thing – was the point about that Natsuko mentioned about the commonality between Japanese culture and Australian culture. One thing that dawned on me there was, you know, the one thing that Australia is very well known for, I think, is safety, security, stability. And I think the Japanese really rate those three things as well. And bringing that together with these issues, the question of social license, puts us in a really neat position to be able to have these conversations and to take them forward. This is just the beginning.

We've got a long way to go, as I said, but I'm confident that we've got a great foundation now to build on, and we'll just go further. So those are my reflections, Trent. It was fascinating.

Trent Wallace

Thank you so much for sharing, Lea and Nat.

You know, some of the things that I really love leaning into were conversations or yarns around cultural safety and the nuance of cultural safety, models of equity in partnerships with First Nations peoples, employment initiatives and procurement, how to engage First Nations peoples in a really respectful, polite way.

What I loved about the yarns were the frankness and the kind curiosity, as I touched on earlier, and so this yarn couldn't possibly capture our week of exploration – yarns to and from Tokyo and Osaka – coffee yarns at Starbucks – and all those kinds of things that we shared whilst we were overseas together. But I remain so grateful for our time and our learnings and all of Nat’s tips and hints and tricks around Tokyo!

So I'm very grateful for the yarn that we've shared today. Thank you both so much for joining me. Is there anything else either of you would like to say as we wrap up?

Natsuko Ogawa

Oh, I just remain curious and fascinated by you and First Nations culture. And I certainly have a huge amount to learn, but I am so interested to do that. And I think that what I hope is that as we touch the Japanese clients and those who are involved in the relationship, that they will also very quickly learn that there is so much joy to be had in making those explorations and the depth of insight you can gain yourself [personally] by exploring First Nations culture.

So I think it's very much, as Lea said, the start of an amazing journey. But one thing I'm really looking forward to, and I know Trent is that we have great plans for continuing to spread the word and to continue to make more and more connections. And I honestly believe that it's one of the most enriching things that I've started to do, that I hopefully at the end of my career, I'll be looking back, and I hope that we'll be both very proud of what we've achieved.

Trent Wallace

Thank you so much Nat. And Lea, over to you.

Lea Constantine

Well, from me, “enriching” is a word that Nat just used, which I just could not echo more. It was a fantastic experience. That's what it was. Yes, it was a lot of meetings and a lot of backwards and forwards and doing all of those things in the heat of Tokyo in August (it was hot!).

The other thing, just more broadly, it also made me think we as a law firm have actually so much to offer to our clients and to society. More broadly, you know, just applying your mind and opening it up to the possibility of this kind of conversation with those clients in another country. Who would have thought that we could actually turn up and do something like that? And get the relationships that we got and the interest and curiosity that we got back that enriched us.

But it also makes me think, “Wow, gosh, if we can do that with that issue, in that place, with that group of clients, imagine all the other things that we could do if we apply our minds to things that are slightly different”.
So it was a fabulous experience, but it makes me think a lot about “what's next?” Let's go! What's the next thing that we want to be doing?

Trent Wallace

Thank you both so much for those reflections. And honestly, as a natural introvert, I didn't leave any of those meetings or any of those days feeling tired, exhausted, anything. It was just full of kindness, reciprocity, synergy, warmth, kindness and really just a joy to spend so much time with you both and learn so much. There was a mental notepad open in my mind, taking all of the notes and all of the learning. So thank you both so much for that, and I look forward to our listeners enjoying this yarn.

Natsuko Ogawa

Thanks so much Trent. It's always great to catch up with you,

Lea Constantine

And thanks from me too. It's been terrific to yarn today.

Trent Wallace

Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Let's Yarn podcast. For more episodes in the Let's Yarn series on ESG Matters @ Ashurst, please visit ashurst.com/podcasts.

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Thanks for listening and goodbye for now.