Building an Olympic legacy for First Nations Australians

Dan Brown:

We acknowledged First Nations peoples as the traditional custodians of the land on which we work in Australia. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging, and to the youth who are working towards a brighter tomorrow.

Dan Brown:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst Business Agenda. My name is Dan Brown. I'm a partner in the Energy and Infrastructure team in Brisbane's office of Ashurst. This is the second episode in our Road to Brisbane series that we explore the 2032 Brisbane Olympics, which is forecast to deliver immense commercial, social, cultural, and community benefits to the State of Queensland. In today's conversation, we'll focus on the critical role of First Nations people and ensuring we deliver a truly diverse and deeply meaningful legacy from our games for everyone. I'm really excited that joining me today for our yarn is Trent Wallace. Trent's a Wongarbon man, and he grew up on dark and young country. He's our First Nations advisor here at Ashurst. He's also a law lecturer, a writer, and the lawyer. Here's our conversation.

Dan Brown:

Trent, it's so great to have you here today. Thanks very much for your time. T

Trent Wallace:

Thanks so much, Dan, for having me.

Dan Brown:

Trent, I'd really love to start at the start, so to speak and really understand how a proud Wongarbon man finds himself in a global law firm like Ashurst. What's your story.

Trent Wallace:

I grew up in [Ducayon 00:01:39] country. I came to the law later in life as I was my mother's carer whilst I was studying at university. So I was able to pursue my dream, which was studying law. I then started my career at the Central Coast Community Legal Center. I went to Australian government solicitor. I felt very fortunate to be picked up. And as part of the program, I was put on a pro bono secondment to the Australian pro bono center, where I was introduced to a wide array of firms that were doing beautiful pro bono work and social impact work. And I had met [Sarah Morton Ramwell 00:02:19] through that, who is the partner in global head off pro bono and social impact. And I was very fortunate as Sarah was probably my favorite pro bono partner that I got to meet out of all of them. Sorry, everyone else if you're listening. Sarah was just incredible. She kind of matched the energy and enthusiasm and love for exclamation marks in emails like I do. So we really echoed each other's energy.

Dan Brown:

That's incredible. And I guess this seems like an obvious question, but perhaps it isn't. Why does a firm like Ashurst, our home, have a role for you or for someone as a First Nation's advisor? Like what's, what's the reason behind that.

Trent Wallace:

You know, Sarah Morton Ramwell is a visionary in many ways, and she crafted this role after a meeting with me. We met for a coffee to kind of catch up and have a bit of a yarn. Sarah offered me the opportunity as she'd seen my work, and seeing what I was able to do with the Australian Pro Bono Center. She saw the work that I did with the University of New South Wales Practical Legal Training Program, and knew that I was also a solicitor on the Disability Role Commission. Sarah's ingenuity allowed for this vision to con be crafted, this First Nations role. And why does the global firm need a First Nations person, First Nations advisor, First Nations person to lead this?

Trent Wallace:

One, it goes to the authenticity Ashurst is worked in the First Nations space for some 50 years with the creation of the Aboriginal legal service in the 1970s. So that was really interesting, 50 years later coming back as an Aboriginal person to lead the work. I'd never, it was really incredible. Realistically, it's one to add that authentic First Nations voice. You know, if you walk the walk, you talk the talk.

Trent Wallace:

Secondly, there's that commercial aspect. So I'm housed in the pro bono and social impact teams. However, I work across the firm both internally, externally, and I'm often yarning with our commercial clients about our First Nations initiatives, where we can see better what we can do to improve. And I'm always looking for ways in which to embed First Nations work.

Dan Brown:

Yeah, that's really incredible. And what I really love about that is that notwithstanding that one of the broader purposes of our business is to serve our clients, serve our colleagues and serve our communities. And we can only do that authentically, as you say, if we actually are engaging in the right way with everybody in each of those places. In particular, our First Nations peoples. And I guess that's probably a really beautiful segway into the theme of these podcasts, which is the Brisbane 2032 Olympics. Now there's under 4,000 days to go until we get to the Olympics. And I've said it before, it seems like a long time, but in fact, it's not given the scale and magnitude of everything that needs to be done by that time. And again, I think this is probably an obvious or rhetorical question, but what role, if any, do the First Nations people have in delivering the Olympics, in making the Olympics in Brisbane come to fruition?

Trent Wallace:

Realistically, when I look around at the First Nations work, particularly within our firm and how our clients progress, they're recognizing their obligations to the unique landscape in which they're operating, which is Australia. I'm seeing opportunities arise more and more for First Nations involvement and First Nations thought leadership. So the role that First Nations peoples can play in this Olympics. Now the 4,000 days is wide variety of things, whether it be First Nations tourism, whether it be First Nations catering. Whether it be First Nations logo design. Whether it be First Nations "welcome to country," acknowledgement of country, being delivered. I think what Australia seems to forget is that this country is stolen. We are all operating on stolen land, and we need to really observe that. And how do we, how do we right those wrongs that have been done in the hangover of discriminatory legislation?

Trent Wallace:

Well, it's through that embedding of First Nations voices and thought leadership. We can do that through employing them throughout the businesses. You know, I look at the huge economic opportunity for growth in First Nations communities. And how do we fit into that? Ashurst can deliver pro bono and social impact services, which will be supported throughout the firm to create that economic prosperity piece. Whether it's helping businesses start up and set up, it's under 4,000 days. When we look at business returns and how long it takes to start to create a bit of an impact and funding, etc, we need this time now, we need to start acting now, we need to start acting yesterday in order to set these businesses up and look at opportunities for First Nations businesses to be utilized.

Dan Brown:

Yeah, that's a really incredible insight because there's a whole raft... There's clearly a whole raft of opportunities to more closely and appropriately engage with First Nations peoples in order to deliver these Olympics. But I wouldn't mind just taking one step back for a moment and probably looking at this through a more macro lens and saying, yes, there's a whole bunch of opportunities obviously to describe, and they're all really important and integral. But when we look at this at the highest level, what do you feel the legacy of these games should be?

Dan Brown:

And, and the reason I ask this is because in previous podcasts, we've spoken about the importance of legacy. And it's not about just creating something that's going to last for the sort of 2-4 weeks of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. But we have an opportunity right now to come together, to listen to all voices and to really create a legacy that will endure for all time. And so when I look at that through the lens of the Olympics, as a whole, which ultimately in my view is for the people by the people. When we really just simplify it down, right? People, people, people, as Brene Brown says, and that's really what the Olympics are about bringing together of people. And what would the legacy, or what could or should the legacy be for First Nations people arising out of our 2032 Olympics here in Brisbane?

Trent Wallace:

2032 and the legacy. You know, in my short time, since joining the firm, which was in 2020, or as I called it the year of [inaudible 00:09:11], which soon headed down a very different route than I planned. I've built these tremendous working relationships, and I feel like Ashurst is part of my home and Ashurst people up out of my family. So I've had the pleasure of meeting Ben [Tidswell 00:09:29], who's now departed, and Paul Jenkins, [Jamie Onlin Constantine 00:09:33], Jenny Mansfield, Sarah Smith, and these are partners across all different offices. Including yourself now, Dan. So it's really heartwarming to say internally, the community of care and the sphere of influence that I've built in the partnership of Ashurst.

Trent Wallace:

And then I'll go down to the various other strata at play, whether it be events and, catering, HR, all of that internal building, internal building that sphere of influence will then illuminate what we can do to achieve in a First Nations arena, external to us.

Trent Wallace:

And so when we look at that, we look at the legacy. It's beyond that, it's the relationship building, it's the capacity building that we have the opportunity to create and shape what goes out there. So Ashurst has a huge role to play in building that legacy, because then we go to advise our clients on this key First Nations work, and we are building relationships between First Nations communities and the commercial setting. So I look at myself as a bit of a conduit bridging the gaps between the legal profession and First Nations peoples, which we know so widely exists. So for me, it's about that first building, that internal peace internal community of care, activating that community of care so that we can illuminate what is achievable for First Nations peoples. And what does that legacy look like? Employment, economic prosperity, that financial stability. Because when we look at home ownership for First Nations peoples, when we look at financial literacy and other programs, we're really seeing sorely lacking programs there.

Trent Wallace:

So by activating our internal community of care to eliminate the legacy, First Nations peoples is assisting in that work. And what can we do for First Nations peoples? A wide variety of things, but we need to set the foundation to be solid. It's less than 4,000 days. The legacy building started, as I said, you know, yesterday, realistically, and upon the announcement of it. So as a First Nations peoples, we will draw our own lens from it. We'll draw out own learnings and lessons, but we have the opportunity to do this correctly. And if we do it correctly, the legacy will be different. But if we don't do it correctly, if we don't engage up First Nations peoples, if that community of care and sphere of influence isn't activated appropriately, then there will be no legacy. And we can look to the 2000 Olympics and we have to move beyond acknowledgement of countries. And we have to move beyond that and do the actual work in order for our legacy to be formed.

Dan Brown:

Yeah, that's a really great point actually. When we look back to 2000 Olympics, arguably in at least in the minds of many, the single greatest Olympics, modern Olympics ever again, when we look at it through the lens of a First Nations people and their legacy, I feel like Cathy Freeman had the weight, not just of the First Nations people, but our country on her shoulders. And what she achieved was incredible. And I'm also mindful to be careful about how I characterize that because I was reading something recently to say, if we say these feats by particular individuals, including First Nations, people are incredible. What it does is it undermines the hours and hours and hours of hard work and planning and all of the preparation that goes into achieving what they did. But, for Kathy, I think that was really important for us as a nation, but also for the First Nations people.

Dan Brown:

I look at the amazing work that Rhoda Roberts did in relation to curating a lot of the arts and cultural pieces, not just in the opening ceremony and that really beautiful segment around awakening, but more broadly in the curation of the art space that was tied with the Olympics. And I look at the work that was done with Mrs. Isabelle [Ko 00:13:45] of the tent embassy and her role as a advisor in relation to setting up the engagement of First Nations people in Sydney Olympics. And we kind of see this compounding effect of really well thought out engagement from a First Nation peoples perspective. And yet with my limited understanding, and I'd be really grateful for your views on this, I feel like the promise of that legacy is potentially diminished in some way. The light that shines so bright in 2000, perhaps isn't quite as bright in relation to that First Nations peoples legacy. I mean, what are your thoughts on that Trent?

Trent Wallace:

Dan, it's really interesting that econ is bring out these deadly matriarchs, these deadly women that we speak of. I find it so interesting, particularly in relationship First Nations peoples that are successful athletes, or actresses, etc. They're often described as our Australia and this Australian woman. But when the failure has come, it's the Aboriginal person. There's never that ownership of a First Nations identity or it's sorely lacking, particularly within different mediums. The recognition of Kathy Freeman and the historic battle sheet won and things that she conquered to get to where she was is... You can't deny the oppression, the layers of oppression that Kathy had to conquer to get to where she was in the racism and the booing and all of that. I speak to Adam [inaudible 00:15:19] quite recently, and when they do wrong, they're Aboriginal. When they do right they're Australian.

Trent Wallace:

And I think it's really right. I think it's... It'd be remiss of me to not acknowledge that. When I look to the 2000 Olympics and the pain that you speak of and the tremendous work that they undertook and building that bridge between First Nations communities and non-First Nations peoples.

Trent Wallace:

When I look at that bridge that they built, it all seems very worn and torn now in 2021. It would be bittersweet in a way, because there is so much that we could take from that and beautiful legacy there. But then again, it may appear as tokenism because as we pass the baton, what's left of that? What's left of that legacy where we really could have bridged that gap and actually continued on that momentum. Continued on that, that path of First Nations involvement in decision-making and skills and all of that operation. And now when you look back at year 2021, and then 2032 what's left, and what can we learn from that? It's about embedding First Nations peoples and work as business as usual. Acknowledging the past, receiving the truth. We've been telling the truth for over 250 years now. We've always told the truth. It's about non-First Nations peoples receiving the truth.

Dan Brown:

Yep. And that's a really good segway into acknowledging that things can be done in a different way. But also I'd be keen to get your thoughts on reflections around other countries that have strong ties, in a business as usual sense to their First Nations peoples acknowledging the past and receiving the truth. And I know in our previous conversations, you've looked across the ditch, so to speak at our brothers and sisters in New Zealand. I mean, what, what is it about the New Zealand approach that really appeals to you from a First Nations' perspective? And maybe describe some of the elements to that business as usual approach that might be relevant here.

Trent Wallace:

Yeah, Dan that's really interesting, I know we yarned about this in the past informally from our last discussion. For me seeing New Zealand incorporate the principles of the Maori people in the airport even. That acknowledgement in the airport. When you, when you land, you come through those doors and I haven't been there, but I've been told about it. The description, seeing Maori, [tao 00:18:04] Pakeha. That blending of two worlds, walking in both of those worlds. The Maori world, and the Pakeha world. It's really interesting and some of the principles that has embedded, they've had senior leadership within the Moari peoples have had senior leadership across government. They've had representation. It's kind of embedded. I'm not... There's one particular senior minister, her name has escaped my mind, but she has traditional tattooing on her face to signify her multiculture and to signify her place in Maori society.

Trent Wallace:

So I find that really interesting. Whereas in Australia, there's still a little bit lagging because of the various language dialects and the language that has been stolen and lost. For example, my great-grandmother was not allowed to speak language. It's kind of beaten out of her. So, therefore, that means I've lost that opportunity in my father. My grandfather has lost that opportunity. Whereas I look at the Maori culture and the language, and the principles. As [inaudible 00:19:12], Maori, Pakeha. Looking at your mana, as I've been explained, your spirit, your soul. Having a look at that and examining that. The jewelry pieces, the pieces of jade and intricate carvings. First Nations artwork is in the minds of most Australians. I think it's dot painting in a boomerang. You know, it's that one vision single... Single narrow shapes, single look to First Nations peoples. And we need to really widen out diversity lens there and see what we can come up with.

Dan Brown:

Yeah. I think that's a really important piece. And one of the other aspects that I think around the New Zealand culture that I really love, and I think it's relevant in the context of the games, but I've just finished reading James Kerr's book called Legacy. James Kerr was fortunate enough to spend a bit of time with the All Blacks and effectively. He written a book that underpins the 15 core values that really drive what has been the most successful rugby union team in the history of rugby union.

Dan Brown:

One of the things that really came to the fore for me in reading that book is that so deeply interwoven into the DNA of rugby union in New Zealand, not just within the All Blacks, but within rugby union more broadly, is the connection with the Maori culture. And so each and every one of those 15 principles that guide the cohesion and the culture and the All-Blacks is underpinned by its own piece of Maori culture that really resonates what that particular value is. And so that's another example I feel of how it's, to use your terms, business as usual. That that culture is being brought into every aspect of every day and for all people within that community.

Dan Brown:

And when I fast forward to the 2032 Olympics, given all of the momentum and all of the focus on really delivering these games, surely there has to be an opportunity for us to be able to bring that beautiful, rich culture of our First Nations people to the fore to set that legacy, so to speak for it, to be business as usual, again, to use that phrase or to be interwoven into our DNA so that we don't find ourselves in a position like we have with Sydney in some respects where that beautiful light of diversity and inclusion has dimmed if only a little, because we've lost that momentum and those things didn't actually form part of or ingrained in our DNA. I mean, do you think that's something that is possible, Trent?

Trent Wallace:

You know, I yarn a lot to colleagues, to friends, to family. And I think one thing that we really need to harness are the wide diversity of cultural offerings that we can provide Australia. And we need it to be more than, and I'm not knocking him, but John Farnham or Darryl Braithwaites horses. It's almost like the unofficial anthem. And then I look at the mud cake, the $6 mud cake for birthday parties. Is there any way in which we can embed First Nations cultures. Yalta Indies Treaty, for example, that song that gained so much mention. What I've noticed is that, in particular, we gained so much momentum, First Nations peoples, we gained so much momentum in one particular area, such as popularity within treaty. That song. And then lemon myrtle. To reference the 2000 Olympics, the community engagement piece.

Trent Wallace:

We get so close to cinching the deal in terms of embedding it as usual, we get so close and then for some reason, it just stops. Treaty falls out of the charts. The lemon myrtle rolled out during National Reconciliation Week, NAIDOC week. And those palatable morning teas. And all of a sudden the dominant paradigm comes back into play. We start hearing the Horses by Daryl Braithwaite playing in the background, and You're the Voice by John Farnham. It all the dominant paradigm and the dominant shift towards that just starts to flow back in.

Trent Wallace:

I think it's about stopping that flow to that norm approach is. This is the dominant... This is the dominant culture, the dominant Australia and Aussie. Paul Hogan, who's hilarious, and all of that. All of that shift towards that. It all goes back to the norm. Whereas we need to embed First Nations, where it needs to be continual.

Trent Wallace:

That's my role. My role is so pivotal in a global law firm because it's unlike, hang on a minute, how about the First Nations perspective? Hang on a minute, what about we get this done in the First Nations perspective where you look at the elements of disability and all look at business prosperity, or whatever. I find it really interesting, Dan. I'm sorry, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent. But I think about all those [inaudible 00:24:30]. How it just goes back to the... And I feel... I'm not bullying good old John Farnham, but there are so many deadly First Nations musicians who've really done so much incredible work. But it just comes back to the vision of John Farnham and that blonde mullet that he rocked.

Dan Brown:

Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's interesting. So you're mentioning Paul Hogan and the success that he had, but also the portrayal of First Nations, Australians or people, sorry, in those movies is dramatized. And I imagine completely and authentic in many respects. Yeah. Which just perpetuates this issue that you're raising.

Trent Wallace:

Oh, absolutely. It perpetuates this really flogged and exhausted trope of First Nations identity in Australia. There's a lack of recognition on the worldwide platform. You know, I remember staying, I was at the Intercontinental when Oprah was there and her guests. And I had these African-Americans and these other American people coming up and saying, "Oh, well like, well, if I go over the Harbor Bridge... But this is a really bad accent. This is why I'm a lawyer, not acting. "If I go over the Harbor Bridge, will I see kangaroos?" It's like, what do you think Australia is? And then when you talk about Aboriginal people, it's this what, oh yeah. From that move the Crocodile Dundee. You don't look Aboriginal though. And it's, you know, and there are so many exhausted tropes that we need to really just get rid of. It's so boring. So boring, Dan. I can't put into words how exhausting it is being Aboriginal in this country and the continual learning pace.

Dan Brown:

Yeah. But that's, that's actually a really important piece. And I think it ties in nicely with what we're discussing here about this legacy. And the reason my brain goes to this point is this: what's clear from our conversation, at least for me, is that it's been very challenging to date, to really embed First Nation peoples culture and awareness into the fabric of our society right now, our broader society. If we aren't able to do that, how are we expecting that those people that live outside of Australia are able to have an understanding. A true, authentic understanding of First Nations people. And so it doesn't surprise me that those beliefs or views around our First Nation people are held by people that sit outside of Australia, because we really have struggled to create that authentic connection and embed all people into our society, particularly the First Nations people.

Dan Brown:

And look, I'll put my hand up in the most vulnerable sense and give a really good example of what you're talking about, which is when we were preparing for our podcast today. And when we were talking about how we should run the introduction in the outro. And I didn't even consider having an acknowledgement of country. And I feel like I'm a relatively open-minded person and yet there's a long way to go, right? Because those things should be done without even thinking, I imagine, right? If that's the legacy and the place that we ultimately want to be. And so it seems like there is a tremendous amount of work to be done.

Dan Brown:

And so I guess, just coming back to the promise of the Olympics here in Queensland for a moment, and maybe this is a good way to tie things up. When I look at some of the reporting and some of the economic analysis that's been done around the benefit of the Olympics, and one of the big four accounting firms has done a really great report on the economic analysis around the Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic games. One of the key findings is, is absolutely mind blowing from my perspective. They say that the quantifiable economic and social benefits are estimated to be at least $8.1 billion for Queensland and $17.6 billion for Australia.

Dan Brown:

Those numbers are massive, right? So if amongst those billions and billions of dollars for the state of Queensland and for Australia as a whole, what's the first step to utilizing some or all of that commercial benefit that's being driven from the games? What's the first step in us bridging the gap or more closely weaving First Nations people and the beautiful and important culture into our DNA. So that that legacy endures far longer, or for, for eternity rather than it becoming a discussion point at the next Olympics.

Trent Wallace:

It's really interesting to me, and I really want to take first the time out to thank you and acknowledge that vulnerability, that place of vulnerability you've come from in just that yarning then about the acknowledgement of country. It's that vulnerability that we can lean into. I think Brene Brown yarns a lot about vulnerability. I think we can lean it into that vulnerable place. And instead of coming from a place of that vulnerability and apologizing, we can come from a place of, this is my opportunity to learn, to grow and to imbed. And I find that that's a key opportunity that we all have to grow to learn and to come together as one. Which is what I really dream off. I worked so hard in this role day in, day out. I hardly get any sleep some weeks because of what goes on. But I lean into the vulnerabilities and opportunities of people like yourself, business owners at Ashurst and leaning into those opportunities to develop and accentuate knowledge and fill in any gaps wherever possible.

Trent Wallace:

When I hear those billions of dollars, I think to some of our prominent business figures in Australia. The likes of the late [Kerry 00:30:38] Packer, who my former boss, John [Corker 00:30:41] actually cross-examined once upon a time. I look at the empires these people are able to build off generational wealth. From Sir Frank Packer, people like that, going back and growing the fortune via that generational wealth piece. I think about the billions of dollars that you mentioned in the economy that we'll be putting into that. The billions of dollars that goes into not only Australia, but Queensland and how do we share that wealth? Because when we look at the accumulative wealth of this nation, it's not very shared amongst First Nations peoples. I ask you to identify any First Nations billionaires that you know, or any First Nations peoples... Give me 10 First Nations peoples that have property portfolios amassing massive over $50 million worth.

Trent Wallace:

We don't really have any answers to that. And there's the hangover of legislation and oppressive regimes that were in place with First Nations peoples that allowed for a lack of generational wealth to accrue. We've got 2032, we've got a few years, less than 4,000 days to ensure that we can start up businesses, First Nations businesses, and access the ones that already exist of which there are plenty when you look out there. There really are plenty of First Nations businesses, but they're nowhere near the realms of billionaires. We really need to look at that and accessing that. And how do we share that wealth by sharing opportunities, by sharing growth, by sharing the pathways of growth. And if we invest a certain amount of finances into First Nations businesses, First Nations education, First Nations disability efforts. All of that, we can create that wealth and we can start to overcome those gaps of which there are plenty.

Trent Wallace:

And I hope in my lifetime because I'm very young, Dan, can't you tell. I hope and pray in my lifetime that I see the First Nations partners in businesses like Ashurst. And I say fascinations leadership outside of First Nations businesses, outside of that role that we exist outside of our cultural identity. But we really must grow together, we must share together. And First Nations knowledge must be paid for adequately. And it's not just having a casual yarn. Let's get your idea on this. No, that's consultancy, and that's a fee attached to that. So we really need to pay our First Nations expertise in the right way, as we would someone with a PhD. As we would someone with 30 years experience as a partner and a law firm. We really need to stop paying First Nations expertise for what it's really worth to create and shift that change that we need.

Dan Brown:

Yeah, that's incredible. And if I think about a single theme that perhaps ties that together, if I've understood you correctly, for me, what I hear is that quite simply it's about acknowledging value. The value of our First Nations people. Which when we started out loud, it, I find a little interesting because it's goes without saying. But it's really about appropriately valuing our First Nations people, and their voices, and their experiences, and their journeys, and their hopes and aspirations.

Dan Brown:

And look, Trent, this has been an absolute pleasure, like genuinely an absolute pleasure. And I really just want to say a heartfelt thank you for sharing this opportunity with me. For allowing me to be vulnerable, but also for you being courageous and vulnerable, to help us in our listeners to grow, to learn and to embed this knowledge so that we can come together as one. And that we as a community can ensure that we build a beautiful endearing legacy for our 2032 Olympics. So thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Trent Wallace:

Thank you so much, Dan, thank you for the vulnerable yarn. Thank you for highlighting what I really love. And I with Ashurst, do you know, as the first and only person in this role in a global law firm, that's got my skills. I am so grateful to be with this firm. And I chose this firm because of the people, because of our legacy as a firm, but because I believe in modern Australia can achieve, I truly believe that we can and will do better in the future. So thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate it.

Dan Brown:

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Dan Brown:

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