Legal Outlook: World @ Work: transcript

Transcript

Stephen Woodbury:

Welcome everyone to the latest installment of the Ashurst's Employment Teams World at Work series. My name is Steven Woodbury, and it's my pleasure to once again take you through topical matters of interest across our global practice group. In this our final podcast for the year, it's only fitting that we'll be focusing on what we see as likely to be the key employment issues for 2022. Now, joining me as always are our panelists from our team; Juditha von der Heydt from our Frankfurt office, Cristina Grande from our Madrid office, Crowley Woodford from London, Jordan Cohen from Paris, and Karen Mitra from our Singapore office.

Stephen Woodbury:

Now we have asked each of our panelists for their top two issues for 2022. But before we get into things, you're probably thinking that COVID vaccinations and related policies will be in the top two issues for all countries. And you'd probably be right, except that we've asked our panelists to not include COVID issues this time. So the field is far more open, and I hope that as we go through, you'll find some expected, but also some unexpected issues identified by our panelists. So without further ado, let's kick off in Germany and Juditha from our Frankfurt office. There's always a lot going on in Germany. So please tell us what are the two issues you are seeing on the horizon for employers in Germany?

Juditha von der Heydt:

Thank you, Steven. Well, in our view, the top two issues for Germany are challenges for the gig economy and the working time act. Few firms of employment have impacted the modern economies of the Western world as much as [skateboard 00:01:29] and platform services and courts, politicians, and state authorities of many European countries have taken a closer look at the impact of platform services. And also whether they foster precarious employment relationships. Same in Germany, where most crowd workers are engaged on a self-employed basis. And in the past such classification had been confirmed in the vast majority of court cases. At the end of last year however, the federal labor court now decided that crowd workers can be classified as employees under German employment law. The ruling definitely has significant impact for the gig economy. It does not mean that all crowd workers now find themselves in an employment relationship with platform operators.

Juditha von der Heydt:

This is still determined on the individual circumstances of the case. However, platform operators have to reconsider their structure in order to avoid a misclassification of crowd workers. Any misclassification is not only relevant with regard to the employee status, but can also lead to substantial payment obligations from a social security and tax law perspective. Companies even run the risk of being criminally liable for intentional misclassification. At the same time, the crowdworking industry should keep an eye on potential legislative action. The outgoing minister of labor and social affairs had already announced plans to improve working conditions of crowd workers in the gig economy. And this approach was now also confirmed by our potential new government. The challenges of our second topic are also primarily as result of digitalization as availability and mobile work offer more flexibility. Whereas our German working time act remains rather strict, including a general maximum working time of eight hours per day and 11 hour rest period after finishing work for the day, which appears to be rather difficult to observe when an employee quickly answers a business email at midnight just before going to bed.

Juditha von der Heydt:

And strictly speaking would not be allowed to start working before [inaudible 00:03:34]. In addition, in a judgment of 2019, already the European court of justice ruled that all member states are obliged to create national regulations for the introduction of a comprehensive time recording system. These requirements are not met by the employer's current obligation in Germany and the German legislature is therefore obliged to adopt the legislation to the requirements of EU law. This has not yet been done and it remains to be seen how the new German government, which will hopefully be in place at the end of the year will adjust the current working time act and to allow for more flexibility of working time schedules and in particular, to implement the European court of justices decision with regard to time recording systems. In addition, a federal labor court ruling on working time recording is suspected next year, which could also bring some movement into the discussion. So definitely something to look out for in 2022.

Stephen Woodbury:

Thank you, Juditha. That's very, very interesting, particularly in relation to the recording of time, which is a feature which has been, for example, in other countries, particularly Australia for many years. I was just interested is the intent behind introducing these reforms to ensure that people are not working longer hours than need be and/or is it in relation to making sure they're being paid correctly in relation to the work that's being performed?

Juditha von der Heydt:

I think it's more the letter because I think that was also the background of the decision of the European court of justice. That in the moment in Germany, and I think in many other European states, the employees only have to record over time, which of course they don't do if normal working time is not recorded, and as they get paid for overtime. But if they don't record it, of course they don't get paid for it. And that was the problem and the background of the European court of justices decision.

Stephen Woodbury:

Yeah. Certainly justification enough. Thank you Juditha. Very interesting coming out of Germany. Let's turn over to Spain now. Cristina, what are the issues heading up for 2022 for employers in Spain?

Cristina Grande:

The main issues concerning the [inaudible 00:05:59] regulations with those concerning working remotely and working time. The law on distance work established certain formalities that all the employers must fulfill and place their employees on their services remotely on a regular basis. And by a regular basis will be understood if within a period of three months, at least 30 percent of the working hours are work remotely. So in practice, those companies who allow their employees to run their services, at least one and a half days per week to draft an annex to their employment contract ruling the terms of such distance work.

Cristina Grande:

The content of that agree is specifically set out by law. It's much set out an inventory of the means an equipment provided for employees, the working hours, the duration of the agreement, compensation expenses, et cetera. The failure to comply with this obligation to formalize a written agreement under remote working, if detected by the employment inspection can be sanctioned with a fine up to €7,500. Besides from a health and safety perspective is also advisable to carry out risk assessment of the working place designated by the employees.

Cristina Grande:

This is something key to prevent potential liabilities that may arise in the future, for example, in case work accident takes place in the place that designated by the employee. The other issue that is that the law states that the employer must compensate the employee for expense related to working remotely. And it refers to that again, the collective bargaining agreements. However, nowadays, step as a few collective bargaining agreements, such as banking or sewer or chemical industry collective agreements, do not set out anything in this regard. So the challenge for the employees is that they have to figure out an amount that is going to be paid as compensation. And this is a tricky issue cause the law does not establish any parameter, besides the employers must explain how they have decided to pay a specific amount. They cannot pay and high amounts because otherwise the compensation could be considered salary and therefore subject taxation and could be also considered when calculating this missile compensation, according to Spanish law.

Cristina Grande:

So I think that we will have to wait for employment inspectorate and Spanish courts rulings to see what is meant by adequate compensation of expenses due to working remotely, and if they provide more clarification in this regard. The other issue would be the working time racer. The Spanish entities must be at work that the employment inspector is going to check if they are fulfilling their obligation to keep or to have a working time register. The aim of this register is to allow the employment inspector to verify if the employers are fulfilling their obligation towards overtime, that is not exceeding the threshold of 80 hours of overtime per year paid financially. And that the remaining overtime shall be compensated with rest in time. So the failure to keep in set working time register qualified that serious increase and companies can be sanctioned with fines up to €7,500.

Cristina Grande:

And it must pointed out that employment inspection is not only going to verify that working time record is implemented, but also it's reliability. That is suspicious. That everybody starts and finishes at the same time every day. The challenges for the employees is that they should implement a system that matches their reality, but at the same time, leaves it clear that overtime is not something voluntary for employees, and that needs to be previous be approved by employers. And also to clarify that not every time in the office or connected can be considered as working times in their certain hours due to personal issues, coffee breaks, personal calls. So certain margin of deviations should be considered.

Stephen Woodbury:

Yeah. Thanks, Cristina. This is very interesting, particularly after hearing from Juditha in relation to Germany, a very similar reform that's been introduced. Can I just ask in relation to how the working register, the time register is going to be recorded. Is there any rule or regulation about the form of which the time recording should be put in place? Or can you use electronic methods or biometric scanning or swipe cards, or is it online or the old fashioned paper and pen, someone recording? Is there any guidance that's been provided as to how it is to be recorded?

Cristina Grande:

No, not really. There's not any guidance. It depends on the company, many companies are just little companies are using a paper and you put your name on the hour that you start and finishes. Then others has an internal Excel that where our employee includes their hours. And then there are a lot of application of servers are available, that companies are implemented. And also many companies are using the entrance at the office with the fingertips and that is issues. And this is something that is connected also with data protection issues. But at the end of the day, if the data is not considered biometric, it will be justified to because the regular basis would be the fulfillment of legal obligation. So there's several alternatives.

Stephen Woodbury:

Yes. Many employers from Australia listening to that would find a lot of what you just said, very familiar, because there's a lot of those methods used in Australia and throughout Asia in relation to record keeping. So very interesting now that it's becoming far more widespread. Thank you, Cristina. That's very interesting. Let's head up to the United Kingdom, Crowley. I know everyone's been grappling with a whole range of issues throughout the course of 2021 with Brexit and COVID et cetera, but is there anything more to look forward to in 2022?

Crowley Woodford:

Thanks Steven. Yeah. There's a couple of things I just wanted to highlight. The first one is the changing work patterns for office space workers will continue to dominate the business agenda in 2022. We've seen in the last couple of months, many office workers across all the business sectors returning to the workplace in the UK. However, the real difference now is that many employers have adopted some hybrid working arrangement. And certainly my experience is that the popular one is working three days in the office, and two days from home. Interestingly, a reoccurring question which I'm being asked by clients is how they should deal with further flexible working requests, which are outside their hybrid working policy. For example, individual requests to work two days in the office and three from home. In the UK, we have a statutory regime for employees to submit this type of request.

Crowley Woodford:

And instantly I should mention that the UK government is consulting or making this regime even more flexible and potentially in 2022, we may see changes introduced such as making the right to request flexible working a day one, right? Traditionally, however, some employers have preferred to deal with these type of requests informally rather than using the statutory regime. Now that they have a company wide hybrid, flexible working policy in place, I'm being asked whether this should still be considered the better or right approach. And of course there's no real right answer to that. But I would suggest that consistency is going to be key. Possibly insisting that all such requests are made using that statutory process will ensure that they're going to dovetail with that new hybrid working policy. Additionally, you are minimizing your risk because a consistent approach will lessen or dampen any impact from a discrimination perspective.

Crowley Woodford:

The second issue I just wanted to highlight is 2022, we'll see the Queen celebrating her platinum Jubilee, and there's going to be an additional UK bank holiday on Friday, the 3rd of June. And of course, that's going to be welcomed by many employees having another day off work. But it may be causing a bit of a headache for some UK employers who's going to be wondering how they're going to deal with another bank holiday. To start with is important to stress that there's no statutory right for employees to have time off on public and bank holidays. The wording in the employment contract will usually set out whether there's a contractual entitlement to this additional holiday with pay, or whether employers have a discretion on how to treat it.

Crowley Woodford:

And where employers have a discussion and decide that they will require an employee to take a day from their annual leave entitlement. They should provide adequate notice to their employees about that. Employers are only required to give notice equal to two times the number of employees are being asked to take. However, I suggest that to preserve good employee relations, the business position is communicated early. This is a known quantity coming down the line, and that communication should be made as soon as possible so that employees can plan their holidays accordingly. And certainly if anyone's unsure about the position or the wording in their contracts, please do get in touch with us.

Stephen Woodbury:

Thanks, Crowley. Your first point about the hybrid working arrangements, classic issue, that's really spang out of COVID or being accelerated by COVID, and I suspect shared by many countries as well. Very interested in the Queen Jubilee birthday holiday. I'm assuming that's not being extended to the Commonwealth countries funded by Britain. Is it?

Crowley Woodford:

Not to my knowledge? No.

Stephen Woodbury:

Well, I certainly put a pitch into that. But otherwise I imagine that it would be a very unpopular decision by an employer to not allow employees to take their bank holiday.

Crowley Woodford:

I think so. Whilst it might be within their contractual right to deny an employee the public holiday, I think it would have to be very specific to the particular work that's being done because the general position adopted by almost all employers will be that they extend that holiday to employees. So you'd be very much an outlier unless you have very specific justification based on role.

Stephen Woodbury:

Don't try and get in touch with anyone in the UK on that day, Crowley, what I'm hearing.

Crowley Woodford:

Intruding the cream?

Stephen Woodbury:

All right. Thank you, Crowley. Let's jump back over the English channel to France and to Paris, Jordan, welcome, and very interested to hear what you are looking at for 2022 in France.

Jordan Cohen:

Thank you, Steven. So in France for 2022, we will be looking at principally internal investigations and international remote working. So internal investigations over the past year, our clients have been facing an increase of internal investigations, and we can already state that this topic will be even widely developed in 2022. Internal investigation is the process initiated and led by the company to determine and confirm or deny the suspicion of a wrongful act committed by one or more employees. From a French employment standpoint, we usually deal with harassment, whether it is sexual or moral harassment, discrimination, or even health and safety related issues.

Jordan Cohen:

If internal investigation are not regulated by the French labor code, the employer must however comply with some key principles laid down by case law. To conduct an internal investigation, different stakeholders are involved and different steps must be followed, which requires in most cases, the assistance of the lawyer. The first step is for the employer to set up an independent and impartial investigation committee. Interview must then be conducted with the alleged victim with the other employees as witnesses and with the suspect on the basis of a pre-established questionnaire that we provide our client with. At the end of the interviews, the investigation committee draws up an investigation report summarizing notably the main steps of the investigation and the conclusion of the investigation while avoiding specifying the consequences for the persons involved.

Jordan Cohen:

The last step, but not the least is the outcome of the investigation. The company must decide whether disciplinary sanction can or cannot be taken. Without being a technical subject, it is a very sensitive one for which we bring legal support to our clients, and which will definitely be one of the top workplace issues in France for 2022. My second subject in France for the year to come is the international remote working. Working remotely from abroad for French employer sounded unthinkable two years ago, and it's now one of the most significant outcomes of this new workplace shaped by COVID. The French law make no reference to the possibility of working remotely from abroad, it doesn't prevent it. International homeworking is growing among French companies and raises a number of legal issues that have not yet been fully resolved. For instance, which is the applicable law? Why does the employer pay the social security contributions? What are the constraints in term of immigration?

Jordan Cohen:

What travel expenses must be covered by the employer? And what about working hours in case of time difference? In the best case scenario, the employee will inform his employer well in advance and both parties can carefully review the consequences of this decision on the case by case basis, and according to the rules applicable in the host country, depending on whether the employee will be working within are at Saudi EU.

Jordan Cohen:

We can already assume that the employer will have at least to register with the social security services of the host country and have to issue pay slips in accordance with local regulation. The employee on his hand will have to pay his own taxes in the country where he's living. For the rest of the question, the case by case study must be carried out. In any case, this is definitely an issue we will be monitoring closely in 2022, hoping to see the implementation of a legal framework, allowing not the possibility for employers to deny international homeworking. It goes against the company's own interest or to contractually limit the consequences such as the coverage of the travel expenses, which is a question we get a lot. Or even create a European remote worker status with specific regulation and tier guidelines.

Stephen Woodbury:

Thanks, Jordan. That's very interesting developments in terms of what you are foreseeing in France in 2022. Just a couple of questions. Firstly, in relation to the internal investigations, you mentioned at the outset that you're expecting an increase in the number of matters that would need to be investigated. Just wondering is that because for example, of a lot greater scrutiny in France, as a result of, for example, media attention or government or social media attention?

Jordan Cohen:

Just like the international remote working was shaped by COVID that the increase of internally in the investigation has been shaped by everything that happened over the past five years maybe. Like the-me-too movement. We have seen a lot of, we saw blowing groups on social media, putting the company at risk and saying that this company has managerial malpractices and everybody's testifying about it. So now a company are very careful and the first thing they do when they hear that something happen in their own company, they just contact us and we implement an internal investigation.

Stephen Woodbury:

Yeah. And I'm assuming also then needing to review policies and procedures and....

Jordan Cohen:

Yeah. Code of conduct. This is something that we've been done recently and we haven't been done before. This is something that's very growing over the past few years and even more the past year in 2021.

Stephen Woodbury:

Thanks Jordan. And then in your second, very interesting issue around international remote working, apart from looking forward to seeing you coming down to Australia to work, I'm assuming for French nationals going to work in Tahiti or Mauritius wouldn't be a bad thing.

Jordan Cohen:

Mauritius had been closed for France since yesterday. This is not possible, but yeah. We didn't get any question about Tahiti or mores, but we got some question that's very similar to that.

Stephen Woodbury:

All right. Well. Thank you, Jordan. I think a number of countries are probably also facing a lot of employees who are choosing to work from other countries because of COVID restrictions and the ability to move and, or to easily get home. Okay. Let's head over to the Asia Pacific region. And joining me is Karen Mitra from our Singapore office, heading up our practice in Asia. Alright Karen, what are the two issues facing our clients in Asia?

Karen Mitra:

Thanks, Steven. I think the two issues that I wanted to talk about that we see of being of prominence in 2022, a workplace discrimination and flexible working. I'll start with the discrimination because obviously that's a fairly significant change that's been proposed in Singapore. So in the last two years, we've really seen an increased awareness of public discourse regarding discrimination in Singapore, particularly as it relates to access to housing and to employment opportunities. Singapore doesn't have dedicated anti-discrimination legislation, but rather since 2006, the Tripartite Alliance for Fair and Progressive Employment Practices has had the role of promoting the adoption of fair and progressive employment practices through various guidelines.

Karen Mitra:

And while they're non-binding, there have been administrative penalties that can be imposed by the government in the event of non-compliance. They're essentially anti discrimination guidelines. But more significantly, during the 2021 national day rally, the Singapore government announced that it will formally legislate the guidelines regarding workplace discrimination and create a dedicated anti-discrimination tribunal. Which was being broadly interpreted as a statement that Singapore will enact common law style anti-discrimination legislation.

Karen Mitra:

We're expecting the Tripartite committee to provide its recommendations to the government regarding the form of their legislation in the first half of 2022. There's a few key things that we're really keeping an eye on. So for example, the particular characteristics that are to be protected by the legislation. Whether the legislation will prohibit both direct and indirect discrimination, as well as the remedies that will be available in the event of discrimination. One of the biggest concerns raised by advocates regarding the guidelines in their current form is that the administrative penalties imposed by the government don't provide any redress to the individual who has suffered the discrimination. It's possible we may end up with an approach similar to that initially taken by Hong Kong where the anti-discrimination ordinance was initially limited to the granting of personal remedies, only in the event of direct discrimination before it was gradually expanded to include more protected characteristics and to provide remedies in the event, indirect discrimination as well.

Karen Mitra:

And then finally, the scope of the exceptions that we include in the legislation and whether or not there'll be any provision made for special measures. Most multinational employers already have anti discrimination policies in place in Singapore. However, as things develop, they may need to adjust these based on the specific provisions of any legislation that's implemented here on the ground. The second issue that employees will need to grapple with is the extension of the flexible work arrangements as employees return to the office in the new year. We're a little bit behind Europe and Australia when it comes to the return to the office and we haven't actually gone back yet and unlikely to do so until 2021. Unlike in the UK and Australia employees don't have a statutory right to flexible work arrangements. And prior to 2020 work from home arrangements were extremely uncommon.

Karen Mitra:

Part work, job share arrangements are still remain very uncommon, even following periods of parental leave. So perhaps fortuitously timing wise in 2019, the Tripartite partners had introduced a particular standard about flexible working arrangements, and it included a very Australian style request process whereby employees could make a request that would be considered within 21 days. And if it was refused an employer, we had to provide reasons for its refusal. But it was just something that employees were encouraged to consider and adopt. It wasn't something that was mandatory. But as we've seen across the globe, a lot of employees have preferred the flexibility of work from home or flexible arrangements in the last two years and want to continue those arrangements. And I don't think that Singapore will be any different in that respect other than it'll be coming from a place where flexible working arrangements have never been the norm.

Karen Mitra:

It won't necessarily be the case that as many employers are going to adopt the hybrid model that others have talked about, although that's more likely for MMCS. There might also be some particular challenges given that currently Singapore law requires employers to provide tools and other necessary facilities to allow employees to work from home, but that's a specific requirement given the current circumstances. Employees are going to need to manage the tension between that requirements and the new office entry requirement rules that start on the 1st of January that allow an employer to negatively assess the performance of certain employees on the basis of their continued absence from office in circumstances where they're unvaccinated. What we really expect to see in 2022 more employers having to formulate for the first time ever and implement in Singapore dedicated, flexible working policies as hybrid working models, become the normal employers in settle on an approach to this particular issue.

Stephen Woodbury:

Wow, Karen. That's a lot of issues coming through in Singapore right now. I was just formulating in my own mind, one scenario that could combine both of your issues, which might be along the lines of someone who refuses to get vaccinated on religious grounds, which would bring into play both your flexible working and entry into premises and potentially the discrimination bill.

Karen Mitra:

Absolutely. It just goes to show that there's been an absolute rapid growth of employment law in the age of Pacific region last few years. Absolutely employers will be seeking more and more guidance on these types of issues and more and more issues to work through.

Stephen Woodbury:

Can I just also ask you within Singapore, is there any discrimination in relation to the provision of services? So it is something which you see in a number of countries, including for example, in Australia, which aligns with an employment law discrimination as well?

Karen Mitra:

No. There's no anti-discrimination legislation at all. There's some very limited rules prohibiting discrimination in other pieces of legislation. So for example, in maternity leave legislation and industrial relations legislation with respect to union members, but nothing more generally. I think one of the things that we'll also be looking at for, with respect to this legislation is the scope of coverage. For example, will it just extend only to recruitment activities, when it comes to employment or will it extend to the entirety of the employment relationship. And will it go that extra step further and cover the types of issues that it would cover in the rest of the common law world, for example, access to services, partnerships, schools, and those types of things and all of that remains to be seen.

Stephen Woodbury:

Yeah, well. Certainly looking forward to 2022 then, thanks Karen. Turning into, and finally to Australia, the two issues that we've identified coming into the frame for are employers in Australia for 2022. Firstly, what we call the war for talent been around for quite a while, but who's going to be even more intense, we anticipate moving forward. The second is that we're facing an election. We have an election about every three years or so sometimes a bit sooner, and we've got one next year. So just to focus on those briefly, the war talent look we've had closed borders as a number of countries have had, but as an island nation been very effective in keeping COVID out to most parts of Australia, that it's had the impact that we've not had any in immigration into the country. So there is a shortage of both skilled and unskilled workers actually.

Stephen Woodbury:

The difficulty we're going to have with opening the borders. It's not so much that we're going to get a flood of immigration into the country, but more that we are likely to see quite a number of people wanting to leave to work abroad. And so we're probably going to have a skill shortage and a general worker shortage throughout the course of 2022, and employers are already experiencing that, but we expect that will increase over the course of the year. Now that's going to be a challenge for employers because they're going to have to focus on how they can both attract, but also retain their good people. In fact, probably all of their people because of the shortage in labor within the country. And I suspect whilst some are going to leave for new experiences and simply because they've been locked into the country for so long. For many employees who are just looking for a change or wondering whether they should make a change between employers, the challenge for those employers is going to be, how do we keep them from leaving?

Stephen Woodbury:

And increasingly it's going to be in part financial, but more relevantly, probably the non-financial attractions for people to stay where they are. And it's going be things like the culture and the leadership of the organization, making sure that there's personal recognition in relation to the work that's being performed, conversations with about the way in which they're progressing their career development, scaling up managers to have those discussions, and more particularly looking at some innovative ways in which people can feel as though they're being included and have a future with the organization. So those softer skills, but very important in terms of making sure that the retention of employees is achieved. And there's still going to be things like payments, retention payments, competitive salaries, sign on bonuses, et cetera. And the construction of contractual terms is going to be obviously very important in that space. But we see that as a real area for focus for most employers in Australia in the coming year.

Stephen Woodbury:

And then finally, the second issue in Australia, as I mentioned, the federal election that's coming up. It's due to be held by about May of 2022. And in Australia, it's the purview of the Prime minister to select when the election will be held. We don't know when that will be yet so. It's still up in the air, but it will be sometime in that first six months of next year. We expect the election is going to throw up a range of different policy platforms from both parties, but on the employment space, we anticipate that there is going to be a greater focus on some of the issues that we've mentioned today, particularly around security of employment, especially for the gig and digital economy. And also as to whether or not model of workplace relations that we have in Australia is fit for purpose. So we have a very traditional model of work laws and regulations, fashioned around what are known as awards and enterprise agreements, which apply collectively.

Stephen Woodbury:

But the question really is as to whether or not a more flexible and modern system of industrial relations is something which either of the major political parties is willing to start to look into. And whether, as we've heard throughout the course of our discussion today, some of the achievements in relation to flexibility and the desire to take advantage of the work from home arrangements are going to be taken into account in the way the policy positions for the next election are set from alleged fully perspective. So there are issues, which I know many employers have a keen interest in Australia, and we're looking forward to working with them advising our clients on all of those matters as we move forward into 2022. That brings us to the end of our session. And so I'd like to thank our panelists; Juditha, Cristina, Crowley, Jordan, and Karen for their insightful contributions.

Stephen Woodbury:

I hope you found them interesting and a value, I know I did. And that there are some things for you to take away to think about and planning for the year ahead. All that leaves is for me to say is thank you once again, to our valued listeners. We really appreciate your ongoing support, and on behalf of the entire Ashurst employment team, I'd like to wish all of you and your families, a safe and restful end of year break. And we look forward to catching up with you again in the new year. Thanks and bye for now.

Host:

If you enjoy Ashurst legal outlook, why not check out our other two podcast series as well? Ashurst business agenda tackles the big strategic issues business leaders face. And ESG matters at Ashurst reveals how business leaders arising to mounting environmental, social, and governance challenges. You can listen and subscribe to business agenda and ESG matters wherever you get your podcasts.